tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post7793294475548013480..comments2024-03-24T02:20:49.965-05:00Comments on iTeach and iLearn: Marriage: Love WinsDave Mulderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18395580054297587342noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post-41556130856533161532015-07-02T11:10:14.123-05:002015-07-02T11:10:14.123-05:00Hi Dave,
I would agree with what you are saying h...Hi Dave,<br /><br />I would agree with what you are saying here about love not being bile-spewing. I am totally on board with your point that we must love, and we must respond to this issue in love.<br /><br />But what does/should love look like in this case? What does it mean to love those who are trapped in thinking homosexuality is OK and acceptable? My fear is that Christians get a bad wrap about not being loving when we say homosexuality is wrong - and even a sin. Many from the homosexual community AND from Christian communities will say that "love" means accepting their viewpoint. Love means keeping our mouths shut about what is sin, or claiming that homosexuality is sin. But that's not love.<br /><br />So, while I fully agree with your blog on love, and with your views that Christians must love, I wanted to clarify what that love might look like.<br /><br />Now is not the time to hold hands and sing, "They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Love, " without us saying - here's how we're going to do that. Otherwise, the gay community can say that Christians are NOT being loving in how we have approached the subject of homosexuality all along - for hundreds and hundreds of years.<br /><br />I don't believe that the church has done a good job of defining love in this case either. In all honesty, I have searched for what love might look like since my brother told me he was gay, and subsequently died from AIDS, and I wasn't happy with what I found coming from our church leadership either.<br /><br />It wasn't until I had a long conversation with Pastor John Klompien that it became clear to me what love COULD look like between Christians and those engaging in homosexuality - or any sin. We have to be willing to call sin out, admit our own struggle with sin, and invite other sinners to stand up against sin together.<br /><br />So, I hope you don't think I was disagreeing with what you said - just clarifying. I have a huge amount of respect for Christians who are willing to take up this conversion on a public level - and who give a platform for those of us who want to join in. You did so in love, Dave. Thanks for that. <br /><br />Peace also to you!<br /><br />NickiNicki Kuiperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643575918325805175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post-19022965181085643542015-07-01T21:41:52.873-05:002015-07-01T21:41:52.873-05:00Hi Nicki,
Thanks so much for taking the time to re...Hi Nicki,<br />Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate hearing your perspective, and your thoughtfully-written, articulate post. We share much common ground, I think.<br /><br />My biggest concern--and why I wrote this post--is the nastiness I see from fellow believers on both sides of this issue. I think there are many Christians (with a wide variety of different beliefs on this topic) who are frankly not living out this call to love. Triumphalism is not loving. Bile-spewing is not loving. <br /><br />I believe we can love each other--despite our differences--whether we are feeling joy or sorrow. Loving each other doesn't even mean we have to agree with each other. (My friend Ron, who is an RCA pastor, recently authored a book called _Compassion Without Compromise_ along these lines. I confess I have yet to read it, but I'm looking forward to doing so.) Is it hard work to be church? Yep. It can be hard, even when we *do* agree. But I stand by what I said: berating each other isn't helping advance the Kingdom. We are called to love, even when it's hard.<br /><br />I LOVE your last point especially: all of us need to spend time in the Word, and each of us need to continually submit ourselves to Christ on a day-to-day basis.<br /><br />Thanks again for reading and responding!<br />Peace to you,<br />DaveDave Mulderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395580054297587342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post-49105751820259508812015-07-01T11:50:03.155-05:002015-07-01T11:50:03.155-05:00Thank you for sharing your thoughts with passion, ...Thank you for sharing your thoughts with passion, Dave. If it's OK with you, I'd like to share mine.<br /><br />First, I think it’s important to go back to Romans 1 and find out why homosexuality existed at that time. The people of God were said to have forgotten God and were doing whatever they wanted. Verse 21 says, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him…” Then, in verse 24, it says, “Therefore…” Therefore, God gave them over to the sinful desires of their hearts.” In verse 26, it explains that they “exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.” <br /><br />But later in this passage, Paul gives a list of many ways people gave themselves over to their sinful desires, listing such things as greed, envy, gossip, and slander. So, because we do not put God first and live as he wants, we are given over to all kinds of sin.<br /><br />The difference, in my mind, is that the sins listed in Romans 1:21-31 are always acknowledged as sin in Christian and non-Christian communities. No one would argue that being a gossip is not wrong, or slandering someone is not worthy of justice, or that greedy people are only doing what is natural to the way they were created. The homosexual community would like homosexuality to be different. They want the world to believe that homosexuality is not wrong, that it’s OK, that it’s natural to those who were created that way.<br /><br />How is it loving of Christians to say, “Go ahead and live in the disillusion of sin.” Why would I want anyone to continue to remain under the powerful delusion, believe a lie, and be condemned? (Please read 2 Thess. 2:11 – actually, all of that chapter is applicable).<br /><br />Instead, should Christians approach others by saying, “I am a sinner. I struggle every day against the evil desires of my flesh. I know you are a sinner also. But let’s call it what it is. Let’s struggle through this journey together, repenting when we choose our own desires above God’s. Whether you struggle with homosexuality or greed or slander, you can walk with me, challenge me, encourage me, hold me accountable – just as I will with you.” <br /><br />We can’t change what we don’t acknowledge. If we say that homosexuality is not sin, we are in trouble – and so are they. Love wins when we challenge each other to follow after God’s heart, admit our sins to God and each other, and when receive forgiveness from God, rather than condemnation.<br /><br />But most important, we must get back to God and his word. We will be given over to all kinds false teachings and doing wrong if we don’t know God’s word inside and out, and if we choose not to follow HARD after him. God is so powerful, loving, majestic, forgiving, merciful, gracious, kind, slow to anger, and abounding in love. Why do we knuckleheads, myself included, choose anyone or anything over him?<br />Nicki Kuiperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05643575918325805175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post-43052375586229100402015-06-30T23:24:42.731-05:002015-06-30T23:24:42.731-05:00Thanks for the feedback, my friend!Thanks for the feedback, my friend!Dave Mulderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395580054297587342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5867106943332368504.post-66329460424474584352015-06-30T21:02:44.242-05:002015-06-30T21:02:44.242-05:00Very nicely written, Dave. Cheers. Taz.Very nicely written, Dave. Cheers. Taz.Tazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06214392988198475843noreply@blogger.com